Abortion...?

my pevious post got a lot of controversy so ive gone back to my notes

the idea of the "pro-life" side of the coin is that the fetus is alive

what is alive

at 8 weeks the heart beats (true) but heart cells beat by themselves outside of the body in a petri dish

the fetus at 12 weeks i belive starts to move its developing muscles slightly, again even the muscles of a corpse will move with stimulation from an electrode

cogognition? well base emotions such as fear and joy only appear after the child is born (usually in first day) and just because the developing brain shows brainwaves this shouldnt be confused with thought, to determine whether a brain is active and thinking we would need pet cat and emt scans

what im driving at is at is that a lot of the actions performed by the fetus are just biological quirks that dont recquire the presence of a functioning mind or incorporeal soul

what is life

answer that

then we can start to debate the ethics of taking it away

Abortion...?violin

1 a: the quality that distinguishes a vital and functional being from a dead body b: a principle or force that is considered to underlie the distinctive quality of animate beings c: an organismic state characterized by capacity for metabolism, growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction

Abortion...?chinese theater opera theater

It doesn't become a human being until 4 months gestation because that is when God breathes the soul into the baby. It doesn't become a baby until 40 days gestation. So before that it is a clump of cells. To answer your question:Life doesn't start until 40 days after conception.
You are wrong about cognition. Just watch the Discovery, TLC, or Science channel progams on baby development in the womb.

I reference those sites so that you can gain knowledge without spiritual bias.
I'm pro choice. Like I said before, if a woman is raped, she should have a choice. And I know some people say, "what about giving up for adoption'?. Well, try carrying in your womb, the product of a rape, and see how you feel about it.
Who are we to decide to take a LIFE period... If its outside of the mother or growing (yes, growing, meaning life) inside the mother. It is NOT our choice!!!!! It is wrong! That baby is inside the mother sucking it thumb early on! It is a life!!!!! No matter how you try to convience yourself otherwise. Even according to the twisted "system" if someone kills a pregnant women, they get charged for the babys death also.. Yet on the flip side, that same women if not murdered can decided to walk into an abortion clinic and kill her baby herself.. Twisted!

Edit~~~

Jehovah considers it a life from the moment of conception. Does it start to grow? It is LIFE! LIFE!! IT IS WRONG!

EDIT~~~

If a woman does not want a life growing inside of her from the moment of conception, they need to decide to NOT Have sex. When you want to talk about choices, that is YOUR choice... Then what happens after that is the result... What people are wanting to do is have the "fun" of making the baby and get rid of the result! Crazy! Granted, early (a few weeks) on they may not have feelings, but does this give us an excuse to kill???? NO! Lets say me calling you names didn't bother you because you had numbed your feelings to it, does it make it right? NO! And this ain't even close to the same thing! We are talking about killing!

Children are a precious gift!

EdIT~~~

Wow! Really good point Willacat!!! That is true, when the baby is growing in the mother early on they want to call it a "group of cells" but if they ever found a single cell elsewhere in our galaxy, it would be all over the news "LIFE FOUND ON ANOTHER PLANET!" ha ha! People are simple minded, they just want to call it that (group of cells) so they can justify in their minds its not a baby, or a life, and won't admit it is a baby or human until they see it actually looking like one. Geez! ha ha! Very good point though! :)
None are God...so none can really answer the question.

I just wish people would take some personal responsibility and would "choose" to use birth control before intercourse...thereby, causing the need for an abortion as a form of birth control to be obsolete.

It is much easier for people to accept abortion for rape, incest or the life or health of the Mother...something out of control of the Mother....but, when people have an abortion as easily as they would put on a condom...something seems incredibly wrong.

However, with that said...because of the gray areas...I do not believe that we can legislate abortion...but, every person will answer for their deeds...
Life, defined by it's Creator.
The case studies show a fetus dodging a needle that was about to abort the baby. Babies can life outside the womb at 5 months in some cases. That is a baby, and deserves to be kept safe no matter what the law says.
The heart in a petri dish does not continue to beat and get stronger with the passage of time. The corpse must be stimulated in order to move, it does not move of its own free will. Once conception occurs, the embryo will grow into a human being capable of all thought and emotion. When you remove the possibility of life from the child it is the same as removing life. The child should have at least the basic right to life. The woman did not create the child on her own, the child would not remain inside her forever if allowed to complete gestation, the child does not have the same DNA as the mother, the child can be a different gender and can have a different blood type...the child is NOT a part of the woman's body. Even if you see the child as a parasite, a parasite is not part of the woman's body either. I am the mother of a child that was conceived through rape, so I take abortion personally. It is painful to know that the world would have been ok with the thought of me murdering my beautiful child because of how he was conceived. He has just as much right to be here as you or I do and so do the millions of babies that are aborted every year.
when does life start, what constitutes life....both of these are debatable, with no real and true answer. it depends of one's personal opinion which is btw subject to change as we get older and wiser.

those who are pro-choice will justify by saying the fetus isn't technically a life, those who are pro-choice will swear that yes, it is a life. it's all about perspective.
Well, a finger is alive, dogs and cats are alive, worms are alive, fleas are alive, a tree is alive, moss is alive.....

Cognition is not required for life, and neither is a heartbeat.

The question that really needs to be asked is whether or not a particular living organism or part of a living organism is to receive protection of the law.

Fleas get no protection. Trees and moss get protection if they are situated in the right place (wetlands, protected reserves). But if trees and moss are in the wrong place (my back yard) I can kill them all that I like.

Human beings get legal protection most of the time, but not all the time. Humans can be killed in self defense, as punishment for a crime, and the law doesn't criminally punish most accidental deaths. So, the most we can say is that SOME or MOST humans are protected by the criminal laws against killings.

What about parts of humans? My finger is alive. It's a human finger - part of my body. I can cut that finger off, and it's not a crime. If someone else cuts my finger off, it's a crime (unless I say it's o.k.).

So what about a developing embryo or fetus? Well, it's alive, just like a finger is (at least). Can a woman do with it what she wants to do with it?

There's no one way to reason it out that comes up with an answer that is inarguable. Reasonable minds can differ, and obviously do.

The question is, what will the law allow? Unrestricted abortions completely so that even an 8 1/2 month fetus can be killed at will by the mother or her doctor? If not that, then where's the cutoff? If that is allowed, then why not allow premature births to be flung off a cliff? When's the cutoff?

Should they all be prohibited? Even a fertilized egg that hasn't yet attached to the womb? A lump of cells three days old?

I think that most people agree that the 8 1/2 month fetus should not be indiscriminately killed. And I think that most people don't look at a few cells lodged to the uteran wall as a human being. So, where's the cut off? 7 months? 3 weeks? 2 months? 3 months?

It all boils down to coming to a consensus, and setting a rule that most everybody can live by. There is no feasible resolution otherwise.
Life begins at the moment of conception. You cannot define life. It just is. But it is the most beautiful thing, and i am sorry that you cannot appreciate it.

you know what i find ridiculous? the fact that "a clump of cells" inside a Mother is not "life" legally. However, if a scientist found a single cell on Mars or any other planet the scientist would consider it "life."
You're question is abortion but you also ask what is life?

Abortion is irrelivant, it is the mothers choice to undertake it and the governments choice to legislate it, which is where the seperation between church and state becomes vital to the democratic process.

What is life, in my opinion it is intrinsic thought, i.e. I think, therefor I am.

From the point that one recognises ones self as something seperate to that which bares it, is the point at which you can truely call it 'alive'.

Fear, love, anger, etc, emotion is a learned behaivior, it is not life and merely biproducts of societal evolution (or deevolution depending on how you look at it).

Development of the body, tissues, organs etc, that is a part of being a carbon based life form, we grow and develop, age and decay.
Life began a long time ago. Religiously- from God or Scientifically- the big bang theory. all organisms, no matter how small, including cells are living. Our reproductive means do not give life, but rather give a growing human that was alive the whole time. Fertilization only begins the process of development, not life. Life already exists, and doesn't begin at any stage of development. That is just the way I see it after really thinking about the question!
you wrote:

"come on guys were getting off topic ignoring the pro life pro choice argument the question is simple WHAT is life"

If it was such a simple question, then it WOULDN'T be a debate. Do you see anyone debating that today, right now, it is Thursday, December 13th? Or that 5x5=25?

Theres no litmus test for life, just as theres no real test to show which football team is the best, or which religion is "the right one", or which figure skater had the best performance.All those things are debatable, because they are philosophical, opinion based concepts.
Simply POSSESSING life by no means grants everyone a RIGHT to life, or else everyone would be a pacifist vegan.

Our rights originate from our status as rational beings, and our right to not be killed exists because our life is not dependent upon the actions or physical body of another. (Unlike an embryo.)